Violence in Islam…a Review of Sources
There are many misconceptions among Christians about the relationship between violence and Islam. Unfortunately, many Christians assert that the Qur’an and the Sunnah both endorse violence against infidels or unbelievers. I would like to ask my readers to ponder the following passage:
"Let the purified ones be exuberant in glory, let them sing aloud from their couches—the high praises of Allah in their mouth and a two-edged sword in their hand. [They will] execute vengeance upon the infidels, and punishments upon the people, binding their kings with chains, and their nobles with iron fetters, executing upon them the judgment written…"
This passage betrays the synthesis between military exploit and the worship of Allah. Jews, Christians and Muslim believe that God will punish the wicked—yet this passage seems to deliver the responsibility of such punishment into the hands of the servants of God. The image here depicted is one of the God’s servants “exuberant in glory” reciting the “praises of Allah” while they slaughter the infidels with a two-edged sword. Could there be a picture more at odds with Western religious sensibilities? Does this passage not depict a religion that advocates violence and hostility?
Those familiar with the Qur’an and the Bible might have recognized this already. Our passage does not come from the Qu’ran. Rather, this passage is from an Arabic version of the Bible, Psalm 149:5-9. Hence, God is rendered as the generic Arabic title for God which is “Allah.” Does the source of this passage surprise you?
I present this passage as a challenge. In my reading Christian revues of Islamic literature (especially the Qur’an), I have found that there is widespread bigotry, over-generalization, and misrepresentation about the role of violence in Islam. Through mishandling Islamic literature, Christians have demonstrated unequal weights and measures—an act deplored both in the Bible and the Qur’an. Christians over-represent violence in Islam while ignoring a very very parallel presence of such “problems” in their sacred texts.
May Y-H-W-H grant us success!
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55 comments:
I don't disagree with the intention of the verse. Even the Torah commanded the Israelites entering the land to execute vengeance on idolaters, no?
The question clearly is who is the infidel?
Those exacting "punishment" claim it is due because the act of infidelity is not accepting the last prophet whom they esteem.
I agree with you that there is more blame aimed at the “literature” rather than understanding those who feel they ought to be enthusiastically rendering vengeance have a misunderstanding of who is due punishment.
What about the contents of the Hadith?
sharon (TR)
Peter, it should be pointed out that all have a key to a lockbox, and that lockbox is Torah and not any displacement theology. Both Christian doctrines, as well as the Qur'an, inherently presume that Ha-Sheim is a liar and has broken all of his promises to Yisreil, sets different and contradictory rules for living for different groups of people, and established some entirely contradictory and superseding system without a hitch.
But yes, passages in the Qur'an do tend to be perverted toward base and violent interpretations by many people. The extreme of this is Sunnis and Shiites killing one another because each group thinks the other are nonbelievers.
Never mind the theological rhetoric - just look at the reality.
More people have died for absurd "religious" beliefs than for any other reason.
A plague on all your houses.
Hello Sharon,
Reading a book from cover-to-cover does not make one an expert--especially when it is read in translation. I have done this with the Qur'an (i.e., read it from cover to cover), and I am not an expert. But I know a little more than the average Christian or Jew about Islam. In my reading of the Qur’an I found a lot of passages promulgating tolerance and progressive polity rather than violence and islamofacism. The passages that I often see Christians and others propose as intolerant and militant (e.g., Surah 9:1-6) are typically misconstrued to satisfy polemical plots and prejudices.
My knowledge of ahadith (pl for hadith) is even more rudimentary than my knowledge of Qur’an; though, I have seen a misuse of ahadith in a manner similar to how anti-Semites have used Talmudic literature to vilify the Jews. A friend of mine likes to say, “An idea in an empty head has the time of its life…” I recommend that one not accept simplistic demonstrations that the Qur’an and Islam can be generalized as a source of violence or terrorism. If one really wants to indict a religion of such evils, he or she must understand the religion (the din) from the perspective of an insider. Hence, for example, if a person is willing to listen to or read teachers who inform him or her about the diabolical nature of Islam, then he or she should also be willing to listed to or read counter arguments as well.
I have come to realize that Evangelicals are some of the worst culprits when it comes to promoting ignorance about Islam. I am taken back by the shallow simplicity and myopia displayed by many Evangelicals related to Islam. On the other hand, I have seen a similar shallowness among Muslim apologists. When I went to community college I attended the weekly meeting of the MSA (Muslim Student Association) for two semesters. Approximately once a month we had a speaker or a video from a Muslim speaker involved in dawah (outreach). The material presented by the Muslim speakers often displayed an over-reliance on critical scholarship (scholarship based on assumptions that Muslims are unwilling to apply to the Qur’an) and often demonstrated misunderstandings about basic aspects of Christian and especially Protestant propriospect. I really enjoyed these meetings, and I miss the dialogue that we shared. It was quite an interesting situation. There was me, a very atypical Messianic Christian who believes in the inviolability of God’s word and in the deity of Yeshua/Jesus with sincere, God-fearing Muslims. Again, I miss these discussions.
Thank you for your question Sharon,
Kol tuv,
Peter, as a criticism on you identifying as a "Messianic" Christian. Here is a criticism from a former Messianic who is now a Netzarim geir about all the failings of that movement:
"Sure in the beginning it was “okay”, but eventually that “feeling” came back…that “something inside of me is losing its life”. Eventually I began to see the flat out truth of these seemingly so called “Messianics”. I know what I am going to say is not going to sit well, but I’m going to be truthful and brutally honest…these “messy’s” and their "synagogues" are nothing more than churches with kippahs…one big “Dress up Jew” charade. Xtian's in Jewish drag, as one person once described it. That’s all. They change their man-god j*e*s*u*s’ name back to a Hebraic form which isn't the real name of the historical Ribi of the 1st Century (Note: He's only half-right; Yeshua is the Aramaic form) and walk around sporting a kippah and Tallis (prayer shawl). Nonetheless, other than that, there is NO difference. Just the same rehashed, repackaged product. You have mostly Baptist preachers calling themselves Rabbi, or "Torah Teacher"...yet any Rabbi could leave them in the dust. Most times they lay claim to certain degrees, yet their schools are either non-existent or nothing more than diploma mills. In their chat rooms, they make fun of breaking Kashrut (Kosher law), put together "Yeshiva's" that have no legitimacy whatsoever. Sure they talk Torah, but even that they mess up too. They'll go through the TaNaKh, and every "verse" they say "See! That's j*e*s*u*s!", taking the prophecies out of context or adding requirements/prophecies that are non-existent in order for them to prove any and all their various falsified doctrinal beliefs. They critique the churches for everything they do wrong, only for them to do the same thing only trying to slip it under the radar! And don't forget about factions...they have created just as many factions as other Protestant denominations. One House, Two-House...you name it, there is a house for it! You have many of the goyim taught to perform all the mitzvot of Torah even those not prescribed for them, but heaven forbid someone mentions "noachide"...they'll form a posse and hunt you down. Many, like a lot of xtians, promote the beliefs that noachides are evil (yet the "new testament" promotes similar principles for goyim see Acts 15) and some go as far as to promote the belief of the Lubavitchers are going to send millions of xtians to the guillotine (Note: questionable statement?). Then you have "sacred namers" pronouncing the Tetragrammaton in all kinds of weird ways, take up upon themselves a Hebrew name without kosher, orthodox conversion and pick which tribe they "feel" like they want to be from. They make up their own rules willy nilly and call it legit Jewish Halacha (Jewish Law). Everything of genuine Judaism they throw away and/or make up all kinds of ridiculous things. They've started positional papers on establishing rules for conversions, which has no, nor ever WILL have legitimacy within the Jewish Community.
And when those finally find the truth about the real 1st century historical Ribi, they are quick to explain away and when defeated they call you heretic, the truth is considered heresy, and label you throughout the messy-antic communities online as anti-missionary (Note: What he is saying essentially, is that there seems to be a tremendous fear of textual investigation/scholarship in most of MJ). But I admit there are one or two good-hearted messy's I am friends with, that are aware of my conversion pursuit and support me the best they can...then again I have had so-called "friends" before that would shake my hand with a smile, yet thought so low of me on the inside."
So there you get the gist of it. Don't think for a second that I'm posting this to hurt your feelings or just to make you feel bad. I myself identified as Messianic until very, very recently. That is until I fully realized the recurring flaws and failures of every group that identifies with that label. If you want to see a conclusive and definitive source-page that establishes the fact that our righteous Master (=Ribi in Ivrit language, only applicable in 1st century in the Perushim context) Yehoshua/Yeshua is the Jewish Mashiakh and no other, definitively disproving the statements of every anti-missionary, follow me here:
http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/MessPro.htm
Hello Anon,
The persistence of your posts and messages to me surprise me. I am starting to think that you actually care about my direction. I do not know why. It might be that we have a number of parallels in our pathways. From what you state I see now that you are a Netzarim geir toshav. I applaud your commitment; though, I cannot see it as any more than a stopping point—a wayside on the path to a more balanced religiosity.
I learned a lot from my time with the Netzarim. Though my time was brief (about three months), I did read all of the NRM (Netzarim Reconstruction of Matthew & Commentary), Atonement in the Biblical New Covenant, Who are the Netzarim (both editions), and other works. These works offered me ideas that I developed and personalized. They do an effective job in introducing Jewish oral law to people from Christian, particularly Protestant, backgrounds. They are critical of abuses in the rabbinic system while also seeking to demonstrate the validity and praiseworthy aspects of this tradition. This critical-constructive approach to the oral law was helpful for me.
One of the motives for my acceptance of oral law was the confusion I felt in the face of the diversity in “messianic” Christianity. One group kept Shavuot on Sunday, and another kept it on Sivan 6. This person pronounces the divine name this way, and another believes that the divine name is forbidden. As you illustrate, the controversies multiply. Oral law—authority—seemed to be the answer that would allow me to transcend the confusion and the multiplicity of voices.
After I left the Netzarim, I began Orthodox conversion. In this process I gained a much more balanced approach to Christianity. I learned through experience that religious Jews are not the demi-gods that I had thought they were. I also learned that Rabbinic Jewish devotion is amiss from biblical priorities related to promulgating pentateuchal and prophetic piety (evangelism), charity, study of Scripture (aside from the Chumash), and personal praise and petitions to God (over-reliance on liturgy).
While in Orthodox Judaism, I rediscovered Messiah anew. I found myself gazing on Him (metaphorically of course) with a new set of lenses. Now, though, He was more beautiful than ever. In Him I found relief, reform, and full redress. In Him was the rarest beauty, the fairest grace—beauty sublime beyond embrace. And, He embraced me in all of my prodigality and pretence.
Please feel free to continue our dialogue. I am enjoying it.
Kol tuv,
PeterS (Tzuriel)
I am not a Netzarim geir toshav. All I can say is that the khavruta is a definitive future consideration in my life, and what I have read so far makes it apparent that the positions and beliefs of that group ring very, very true in various ways. I would also like to help Brian Tebbitt's Capernaum Research Institute get off the ground.
There are many problems with observant Israel today, as there always have been. In Biblical times it was as if they constantly turned to other deities and going their own way, and in modern times seem too prudent and reactionary (this, BTW, is sometimes very amiss of many 1st-century Perushim like Hileil and the tradition of the Khasid, Yeshua probably was one). Ribi Yehoshua, who was a Pharisee as a matter of fact, got it more right than any other person on the planet.
The Prophets of the Tanakh suffered largely in place of their people (the main role of the Biblical Navi, Prophet, is to charismatically call people back to Ha-Sheim and Torah, not a fortune-teller). Note that it is historically irrefutable that the "heavily liturgical" synagogal environment is the one in which Ribi Yehoshua did the core of his teaching; the direct continuation of this formal environment is today's Orthodox Beit ha-Kneset, the least contaminated tradition thereof being that of the Teimanim. By the 1st century they were learning from the Prophets and prudently studied Torah all the days of their lives.
Your other criticisms, I will try to answer briefly: "Lack of charity". Tithing and being a generous and fair person continue to be an incumbent duty on every single Orthodox Jew. Charity is also a foundational principle of the Khasidic tradition. "Lack of study of scripture". Hehe, Rabbinic Judaism is the most studious religious tradition on the planet. Read any classic Rabbinic commentary, ANY, and almost the only thing they look to is either directly at the Tanakh, or an earlier Rabbinic commentary on the Tanakh. They painstakingly study Scripture right down to the level of a code in which every Hebrew letter is paramount to full understanding, while Christianity just sees in terms of King James English. "Lack of personal praise and petitions to God". A hallmark of Biblical (and by extension, Jewish) worship from the very earliest time is that it is extremely communal in nature; an Israelite or Geir was one in an entire community and nation. Again, the Khasidic tradition has as a foundational principal personal spiritual experience within the inherently Biblical framework of communal worship.
Yes, I care about you very much, Peter. It is only Biblical, after all. :)
Hello Anon,
I see that I misunderstood your previous post. I thought that *you* had become a Netzarim geir toshav. Now I see that you are quoting from another source. I am sorry for my mix-up.
I have found that a larger percentage of Evangelicals know the Prophets and the Writings (of Tanakh) than Orthodox Jews. I have lived in both communities. The time commitments to prayer, study of the Chumash (reading it through in Hebrew and then with commentary), and halakhic/talmudic study leaves very little time for study of the inspired Prophets. Hence, few observant Jews have read their own Prophets let alone have developed a compentency in understanding them. Yes, I realize that the haftara is read every week, but this reading is only a small sampling of what the Prophets speak. You are right that Evangelicals neglect biblical languages---and how unfortunate this is.
The liturgical worship in 2nd-Temple synagogues was a lot more dynamic and fluid then it became after the destruction of the Temple. I doubt that Yeshua said Amidah with frequency. It is unlikely that His prayer practices would have been any more than a loose parallel to modern day rabbinic liturgy. It is an over-statement to assert that Yeshua falls sociologically in modern-day Orthodox, Rabbinic Judaism. I suspect that Yeshua the first-century man would be very uncomfortable today at shul-- even at a Temmani beit knesset.
In a rush...so just a few thoughts.
kol tuv
I do enjoy this back-and-forth exchange; it helps us learn much.
Correction: Evangelicals (for that matter, virtually all Christians) do not study the Tanakh but the Septuagint translation (which was translated into the common Greek vernacular for the Western world's usage as a HISTORICAL RECORD, not to be used for religious functions, see the Talmud). They study a translation of the Greek Septuagint, and such had no proper conception of Torah or historical Judaism and are therefore to reliably translate from the already poor LXX (the Greek language itself is just about the poorest language as it is for transmitting Hebraic concepts). Since, in a total and 180 degrees about-face from the 1st-century followers of Ribi Yehoshua, they believe that Yeshua was a man-g*o*d and came to "set them free from the 'Law'", have no proper respect or understanding of the Torah, Derekh Ha-Sheim, and the eternal and immutable status of Bnei Yisraeil whatsoever and the exclusivity with which everything is addressed to. Through their severely counter-historical claims, all they're left with is going through it completely out of a proper context, looking only at select moral teachings (while simultaneously calling the Noakhide principles, the first extant record of which is in 'Acts 15' (!), evil) and pointing to every other passage and saying 'see, that's Jesus!' creating countless characteristics and messianic prophecies for Yehoshua that never existed. They should be commended for the emphasis they place in studying the Naviyim (Prophets), but the way in which they do so is to be chastised, totally counter-productive if anything. I would never, ever, want to be in a Bible 'Study' with such people that call the Word of Ha-Sheim an 'Old' Testament and can't even read the first word of it.
The Amidah was around in the first century and observant Jews said it (certainly then, Ribi Yehoshua did).
Today's Orthodox synagogue structure and its liturgy is more set-in-stone than it was in 2nd-Temple times, and for good reason. The threat of assimilation to all of Bnei Yisrael looms more than it did in previous times; institutionalization of this caliber provides a solid foundation and a defense against further dispersion. I call this phenomenon a development, not a step in the other direction.
About Master Yeshua entering a Teimani beit kneset: I solidly believe he would find himself in good company and be very comfortable there (he would not, mind you, be in such good company in any "shul" where they are observing "Shabbos"). The Yemenite people would pronounce Hebrew virtually alike to how it was pronounced in the 1st-century, and have similar chants. The design of their talitot, their tefilin, is virtually identical. He would see people that look like him, prostrating full-body to Ha-Sheim, with a synagogue that is designed extremely similarly to the way they were designed in times ancient (other than being somewhat more institutionalized), and would be pleasantly surprised to see every verse of Scripture read aloud in Hebrew also be parallel read aloud in Aramaic, the vernacular language of his people in the 1st century. Being a Ribi that lived and practiced Derekh Ha-Sheim very similarly to them, such a person as Yeshua would be accepted as their leader if anything! Learning about the Yemenite Jews and their beautiful, pristine customs bring joyful tears to my eyes.
View the following pictures of Yemenites (one, singing aloud the Torah, the second, preparing to prostrate full-body). http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/YemeniJew1914.jpg and http://www.chayas.com/sitting12.png Tell me, do you see ancient Judaism in these depictions, do you see history personified, do you see Yehoshua? I certainly do.
Take a look at what the Islamic people in their own nations are saying about North America. Watch the DVD Obsession and then see what you think.
Hello Brian,
I disagree with your assessment of the connection between violence and Islam. The presence of violence in Islam-dominant countries is in spite of Islam and not because of it. Such violence is not inspired by Islam; rather, it is brought on by sociological and political trauma. Unfortunately, the West is the culprit that has inflicted most of this trauma. If the tables were turned, it could easily be "Christians" commiting acts of terrorism.
If you are serious about the allegations that you imply in your post, then I recommend that you consider the sociological assessment of the Middle East and Muslim suppression by El Fadl (The Great Theft) and Noam Chomsky (Failed States & Middle East).
I have watched Obsession. This is not about Islam. Sorry.
PeterS
It is injudicious to compare Israelite militancy of the past or even some militant prophecies about Israel with the present Islamic violence. Also the crusades were over 1000 years ago.
In any case the issue isn't who or who isnt militant. The issue is who is right and who is wrong. Muslims live and teach a policy of hatred toward Israel, and so will not be blessed by the God of Abraham.
Also, the Koran does advocate the killing of infidels. The Terrorists have the interpretation right. It is the moderate Muslims who do not read the Koran.
The blog-post gives one a feeling of moral equivalency between the Christian Bible and the Quran. As such I think you have done a disservice to Christians and Jews to present it that way.
Hello latest anonymous:
Have you read the Qur'an? There is a lot of absurdity being thrown around as legitimate reading of the Qur'an. I have read the Qur'an from cover to cover twice now. I read it first about ten years ago, and I read it again this spring. There are less "calls" to violence in the Qur'an then there are in the Torah. The "calls" to violence in Qur'an are quantitatively less and qualitatively more minor than those found in just the Torah. The Qur'anic "calls" to violence can be counted on one's fingers where the Torah's calls to violent means require the fingers and toes of a few.
I am sorry, but I hate ignorance. I especially hate the type of ignorance that you display in your statements. Consider reading the Great Theft by El Fadl. He is a "moderate," and he does a great job demonsrating the superiority of the moderate Islamic position.
For the record, I am not a fan of the Qur'an as a form of absolute inspiration. I see a lot of backward material in the Qur'an related to science and morality, but I see a lot of backward material in the Bible as well in these categories. Do I hold these two as moral equivalents? Yes/no. I see that the power of the text is found in what the reader makes of it. I see, though, and ironically in this post 9/11 era, that the Bible has more potential to be used for incitations to violence than the Qur'an.
I realize that I am rambling a bit...I feel impassioned about this issue.
Latest anonymous:
One more point....
You state:
"the Koran does advocate the killing of infidels. The Terrorists have the interpretation right. It is the moderate Muslims who do not read the Koran."
The position of the moderates today has been the status quo in Islam until the invasion of Islamic countries by the imperialistic West. It was at this time that the Salafi and Wahabi readings of Islamic tradition began to rewrite its own history and glorifying hostility to non-Muslims. Today, the ahistorical Wahabi ideology inspires the majority of the world's Islamic extremists. Yet, as I have already stated, the "moderate" view has been the status quo for most of Muslim history.
So, expert Qur'anic exegete, how do you come to the conclusion that the, "Terrorists have the interpretation right"? Have you watched a video about this or read a book made and published by Evangelical extremists? Or did you hear this on the radio? I would be interested in discussing this if you have the intellectual integrity to have done the study for yourself instead of being spoon fed such rubbish.
PeterS (Tzuriel)
Peter:
Bravo! You are very judicious and clear-cut in your arguments. While I cannot agree with Islam's (as well as Xtianity's) attempt to displace legitimate Observant (today's Orthodox) Judaism, it is ludicrous to slander it for being a doctrine of bloodshed unless one has the most concise and informed idea of what it is all about. Which certainly excludes anyone that has not actually read the Qur'an (including me).
Andrew
"Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them" (Koran 4:89).
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you" (Koran 9:123)
"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strke off their heads and, when you have laid them low, find your captives firmly" (Koran 47:4).
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it" (Koran 2:216).
Consider this: "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (Koran 2:257).
Sounds good, but Muslims who quote 2:257 also know that it has been abrogated.
"You to whom the Scriptures were given! Believe in that which We have revealed, confirming your own Scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you" (Koran 4:47).
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians] as believe [not] in God ... who do not forbid waht God and his Apostle have forbidden [for example, Mohammad forbade proclaiming the Deity of Jesus as God's Son. See 5:17], and do not embrace the true faith until they [any who survive the war mentioned at the beginning of the verse] pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued" (Koran 9:29).
None of the violence that Muhammad perpetrated on the Jews of Medina was righteous. He killed them with treachery. That's a historical fact.
What do you mean that you see a lot of backward material in the bible in relation to science and morality? This seems to be at odds with your statement "Scripture is inspired of God and constitutes the ... special revelation of God."
How can you be ambilavent "yes/no" about the moral equivlaency of the bible and Quran question and profess that the bible is the word of God?
You characterize the bible as having more potential for violence. So if in the name of the bible Israel were to rise up and cure the terrorist problem by defeating its enemies you would disapprove? If Ehud Olmert were to suddenly turn into a hawk and and do what is needed in the name of "Torah" and justice, you would disapprove because defeating Islam would require some "violence"?
The Quran is such a disordered mess (intentionally) very few can make heads or tails of it, (other than reading the passages of hate) unless they learn to organize it in the order of when and where events took place during Mohammad's life.
Then there’s the rule of abrogation to remember, later verses abrogate earlier ones, no exceptions. Sura 9 is one of the last, in which Mohammad declares war on all mankind...convert or die.
ZFR:
Your theory of abrogation is consistent with some schools of Quranic tsafir. I disagree with it. I consider context the king. The passages that require or allow violent means were delivered in a politically violent and threatening environment (Medinah -- after the hijrah). The use of these passages by the Wahabi and others is demonstrative of their exegetical non-reliance on history and context. The Wahabi refuse to read such passages against the Medinah context of delivery and rather argue for abrogation of previous verses. This reading is not consistent with the majority view throughout Islamic history.
Anonymous:
I will address each of these passages with a blog post. These are some of the most misused passages in the Qur'an. Your use of them demonstrates your reliance on propagandistic material produced by individuals who attempt to cultivate hostilities toward Muslims. Your use, I am confident to say, demonstrates that you are not aware of the majority reading of these passages by Muslim scholars--past and present. If you were aware of the majority, historical readings, then you are being dishonest to cite these passages. I prefer to assume that you are simply ignorant, not dishonest.
Muhammad did have some sections of Medinah Jewry killed. Yet, his act was not one of genocide or ethnic cleansing--let alone an act of miso-Judaism. Rather, prior to this event, all of the parties (Jews, Christians, Muslims, pagan Arabs, etc.) of Medinah entered into an ecumenical constitution—an example of the tolerance that Islam is capable of encouraging. Later, several of the Arabic and Jewish tribes violated this constitution. They were executed for taking the path of Benedict Arnold-as traitors.
You state that the killing of Medinan Jews was not righteous. By what standard do you judge this? What made the killing of the Canaanites righteous? What made the killing of the Shabbat stick picker (Numbers 15) righteous? Do you consider these acts righteous just because God said to do it? Why was it wrong for Muhammad to do what he did? If the Medinah community’s act was endorsed in Torah, would you then consider it righteous? If the Medinan Jews were Palestinians, would you think anything of it?
I do not see an equivalency between the modern, terrorist state of Israel and the Israel of the Torah. Yes, I see a lot of material in the Bible that is backward morally and scientifically. In fact, I see more backwardness in the Bible than I see in the Qur'an. Both are human products of their times. Both may reflect the encounter of God by mankind, but neither transcends then-contemporary concepts of the cosmos and morality
Modification:
I overstated my last sentence:
"...neither transcends then-contemporary concepts of the cosmos and morality."
Both the Qur'an and the Torah evidence moral standards that transcend current ideas. For example, the Torah gives rights to Israelite slaves that require institutional restoration. The Qur'an gives women the right to property and private income. Both condemn polytheistic superstitions and require the reader to embrace a linear and reality-based view of the cosmos. These are moral advancements...but both contain morally and scientifically defunct data.
Please elaborate on the “moral backwardness” that you see in the Bible. Where exactly do you see YHWH condoning moral depravity or injustice?
There are many examples of “bad behavior” in the Bible. YHWH does not try to paint the flawed cast of characters He came to redeem in anything but their natural colors. But demonstrating the reality of human depravity does not mean God approves of it.
For example, Simeon and Levi took revenge on Shechem through deceit and a military strategy that was unwise and unjust (Gen. 34). Syncretism had entered the covenant life of Israel and resulted in divided hearts and poor judgement. The slaughter at Shechem caused Jacob to become angry at his sons and required him to move his family back to Bethel.
God strongly disapproved of the rash act of Simeon and Levi.. The despicable acts of Reuben, Simeon, and Levi were quite possibly factors in Judah, the fourth born son, being selected as the tribe to bring forth Messiah.
Gen. 49:3-7:
Reuben...unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed.....
Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
... in their anger they slew a man, and in their self will they digged down a wall.
Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel:
I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
The Bible has withstood every attack of its critics for Millennia. It is the Word of God that endures forever. Those with humble hearts will confess that they are not smarter than the God who created them and will put their questions and doubts on the back burner for later examination rather than accuse God falsely of failing to fully inspire or preserve His Word.
Peter, you wrote:
I do not see an equivalency between the modern, terrorist state of Israel ....
What makes Israel a terrorist state? Do you mean to imply that Palestinians are "Freedom Fighters"? Do you mean to imply that the Muslims fighting Israel are more righteous than Israel?
You say you believe in God's covenant with Jacob. Muslims are not descendents of Jacob, so can you explain how Muslims have any claim on the land of Israel?
Peter, a reply to some of the logical boundaries you're overstepping in your latest post, from a rationalist Orthodox Judaism perspective:
"What made the killing of the Shabbat stick picker (Numbers 15) righteous?" -- What most people reading this section of be-Midbar 15 fail to infer correctly, whereas what most Orthodox Jews and geirim understand right off the bat, is that person's gathering of twigs was actually part of a larger deliberate attempt to profane the Shabat to spite the whole camp of Israel. Circumstantial (much of which is apparent ONLY in the Ivrit) evidence from the text strongly implies that the man was attempting to create a large bonfire in front of the camp of Israel, possibly even as a mockery of the eish in the Beit ha-Miqdash. The act of picking up sticks by itself, especially in the proto-halakha of Mosheh Rabeinu's time, has never been considered a transgression of Shabat under any Beit-Din up to the modern day. The Talmud (most reliably compiled by Ramb"m) corroborates all of the prohibitions of Shabat, as well as the basic fact that the Beit-Din ha-Gadol ("Sanhedrin") reserved the penalty of death for only the most flagrant, insidious, and deliberate transgressions, where monetary damages were almost always the substitute...reading the Talmud for its content, within its context, is an obvious remedy.
"I do not see an equivalency between the modern, terrorist state of Israel and the Israel of the Torah." -- First of all, calling Israel a "terrorist state" is absurd. When's the last time Olmert sponsored a suicide bombing, proclaimed "death/blood upon [insert enemy name]", or threatened the peaceful process of half the middle eastern region with a nuclear program geared primarily toward creating a more catastrophic diplomatic environment? Israel, most of the time, is simply fighting to maintain its fragile existence against a network of militias that insist upon its total destruction through any process of violence necessary, and unlike said enemies, has never realistically been at liberty to put down its weapons for its own good. Occasional human rights violations or paranoid isolationism, completely unlike daily bombing-massacres of innocent civilians in the streets and shouts of bloody death to your enemy, are to be expected of imperfect but genuinely well-meaning human beings, at least until the Mashiakh-mission has seen its fulfillment. It's only expected that the modern state is not without its principal differences from ancient Yisraeil, because, again, the Messianic and Tanakh-prophetic course of events to RESTORE it as such have not yet fully taken place. Rejecting the clear halakhic precedent for the modern state's origins and history (especially in its miraculous survival through several short periods of intense conflict mirroring Tanakh events and prophecies), is poor form indeed.
These basic facts and principals are native to those that affiliate with and gear their practices toward Observant-Orthodox Judaism (which always precludes superstituous anti-logic Ashkenazi-Khareidim), and alien to those that practice Christian-Jewish pseudo-Judaism, in active and deliberate separation from modern Observant Israel. Learn to make the right decision, Peter.
Andrew
Hello Peter,
This letter seems to be the only way you will communicate with me. You won't talk with me on the phone. You wont talk with me in person. You know I've given you every opportunity. First I would like to state that I was the anonymous poster who said that the terrorists have the right interpretation of the Koran. And I was the poster who quoted from Don Richardson's book "Secrets of the Koran" (Forward by Reza Safa, Author of Inside Islam). And I was the one who had to endure your insulting reply.
Let me make it clear, that my aim was not to argue over interpretations of Islam, but to draw you out so that you would state your position. Thanks for doing so. You show yourself to be in the greatest state of spiritual confusion, and frankly you need deliverance. But that is only possible if you reach out to the God of Israel and seek the assistance of a Pastor gifted in this area. I know one who is a Seventh Day Baptist Pastor.
Yes, you are angry at God and angry with your wife. Trust me though. Your foremost problem is with God and not your wife, which is why I will not say a word to you about that. The wife problem is a result of your doubting relationship with God. She was only the catalyst, and not the cause. You were the cause. I know you want to divorce her, but she does not want a divorce. She is willing to change. Are you? You will have to get right with the God of Israel. You will have to accept his TEST OF YOUR FAITH, ADMIT FAILURE, and ask for FORGIVENESS, and recommit your LIFE to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
You have to stop hiding Peter. I am not going to let you hide anymore, at least not from those I can talk to. If you feel ashamed at this public rebuke, believe me, it is nothing compared to the shame that you will feel from God if you keep going on the course you have set.
Now let's get down to business. You are still posting on your blog, and you still have a statement of faith up. So let's start with being honest. In my opinion you no longer believe the things in your statement of faith and as an honorable man you should take it down:
You wrote Riazahmed@al-balaagh.com: Sat, 5 May 2007
********************8
Hello!
Thank you for your replies.
I no longer am able to stand behind what I post on my blog. I do not accept the idea that Isa is God. I have a hard time accepting the idea that the Bible is the uncorrupted Word of God as I see many layers of development and authorship in the texts. I provided the link to my blog simply to give you a peak into who I am.
I have been to your blog a number of times. I will check it in more depth, and I look forward to hearing more from you.
Salam,
Peter.
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You wrote Riazahmed@al-balaagh.com: Sun, Apr 1 2007
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Hello Riaz:
Thank you for the books that you make available at the Al-Balaagh site. I am considering Isalm … I am a big-time fan of Tolu-e-Islam …
********************
The main reason I wanted to talk to you was to explain these statements. I told you that there would be a one sided default if you did not respond. They are totally inconsistent with the statement of faith you have.
So please fess up that your statement of belief is just as much a spoof as the cicada tale about the kids.
The Torah says "Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt" (Lev. 19:17.
Daniel Gregg
Repentance
May 20th, 2007 by Connie
A sinner should turn back from his sin, and should confess his misdeed before God as Scripture says, “When a man or woman commits any of the sins of mankind, acting unfaithfully against the LORD, and that person is guilty, then he shall confess his sins which he has committed.” (Numbers 5:6–7) The main element is remorse in the heart, in truth, over the past; and one must take it upon himself not to do such a thing ever again. This [confession] is the essential part of repentance; but the more one confesses, the more praiseworthy he is.”
~ Chofetz Chaim
The Netzarim (http://netzarim.co.il), like Ramba"m and the Baladi/Dor Da'im, and like Yeshua whom they follow as Mashiakh, interpret halakha exclusively within the boundaries of logical precedant and science. They use logically-founded arguments for the Prime Cause and immutable Singularity-Creator (Y--H Elohim in Ivrit) and ex-nihilo, not magical interpretations of prophetical revelation and superstitious human-incarnation theories.
The book "The Mirrored Sphinxes" written by the Paqid, explains, in the clearest and most logical way most congruent with the present archaeological data, a likely account of what Benei Yisrael was historically including their tenor in Egypt, how the Exodus occurred, what form of person Mosheh Rabeinu was, and how the twelve separate traditions of Torah at that time culminated in the great and immutable Torah at Har Sinai. There is no suitable replacement for this archaeologically sound, rationalist Orthodox Jewish treatment of the Biblical account.
Everyone, please stop dogging Peter and let him sort some things out. Those that teach selective rejection of practice of Torah, are in no way qualified to presume to teach it.
Barukh ha-Sheim, Peter. Let's discuss Torah!
Andrew
Islam is out to take over this earth and make it an Islamic moon god worship of Allah in the whole earth. Infidels, Jews & Christians, to be Murdered as they are even now are doing. Look in Asia, Indonesia, Africa, Mid East, Kosovo. It doesn’t even bare any weight if Islam is given a bad rap with the claim that they are all violence based...it doesn't matter because the bottom line is that contrary to popular belief, they do not sere the same Elohim
Choose you this day whom you will serve. The big black moon rock of the Mohammad's moon god icon idol in Mecca? Allah is the moon god of the false prophet Mohammad. Mohammad's moon god is the god of war, hate, lies, and murder. The one true living God of Abraham can only be known by KNOWING His only begotten Son Y’shua. The God of Abraham is God Almighty, the God of peace, love, truth, and life. Why do you consider follow some black rock at Mecca when you know only then will you turn and call true believers Idolaters?
That is the truth. IF YOU LOSE Y’SHUA, YOU LOSE YAH, and win the lake of fire. If you have a faith which is not built on who the historical Y'shua, not Mohammad's fako 'Jesus'. The REAL Y'shua is Elohim who has come in the flesh, not as an appearance, not as a spirit or angel, not as a teacher or prophet, not as an anointed man, but THE ONE who truly has come as God, Almighty Yahweh Creator, in the FLESH. If you don't get to KNOW this most important of all truths, you lose everything..
The Torah, to include all of the Word, is not just something you ‘study’it is YHWH’s letter of the love of to you…to be received. The love of Yahweh may only be perceived, and the person of Yeshua may only be KNOWN by the Spirit of Truth.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Y’shua accursed: and that no man can say that Y’shua, is the Lord, (The Creator not a creature), but by the Ruach, (The Spirit of Truth).
Believing in the false prophet Mohammed’s moon god allah is going to do you as much good as believing in Harvey the 6' invisible rabbit.
That is why I am trying with all diligence to directly communicate to you the great peril to which some may have come. We have got to KNOW the Y’shua, who is the Creator. Just call the Y’shua who is a creature......Harvey. No problem. Knowing a Yeshua who is a creature and not the Creator is as good as Harvey, anointed, intellectualized, spiritualized or otherwise. Run to the Real Y’shua as fast as you can. On the other hand if you believe the Creator is a creature, you don't KNOW Y’shua, He will declare He never knew you. Your life and the life of your family is hanging in the balance…Your eternal life or the eternal lake of fire hang in the balance. I apologize for my impassioned response, but you did say you were considering Islam. May you find The TRUTH and truly KNOW Him before it’s too late. KNOWIN YAH isn't something you can do intellectually, son, its something that has to happen in your heart. Let us discuss.
Jew, Netzerim, Messianic, Christian, evangelical...Everybody has to have a name and title...in the end all that matters isn't this or any other intel-babbel...it's relationship with the Creator. And why leave anyone alone? I find it sad that when you seek to live a pure life you are called legalistic, and when you seek to hold one another accountable you are called judgmental - - oh how everyone wants to be left alone with their sins, to hide, to sort through, to keep locked in the dark while we take on a whole other personality. Sin is always at the door, but when you bring truth into the light, everything gets exposed. Is this not what we are called to? To come out of the darkness? As far as the Torah cammanding the israelites to execute vengeance on idolaters when they entered the land, it was not their vengeance, it was God's. He told them not to learn the ways of the pagans and worship Him in such a manner, such is why He had them destroy all such remains.
keeping true-
perhaps you should tone it down some and let up on Peter. It's not your job to be the Ruach.
Peter-
Keep seeking YHWH and let His Living Torah speak to you
Andrew -
if your not netzarim, what are you?
Fort Wayne contingent:
Must be something in the bitter waters of FW.
"Miserable comforters are you all...I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you...O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbor..."
"The congregation of the hypocrites shall be desolate."
Book of Job
*******
Dan, Andrew, and I are pleading to God for you, Peter. You will know who your true friends are in this trial.
Would anyone else like to join us in fervent prayer and compassionate counsel?....or do you prefer heaping scorn upon the devastated.
Um...I'm not clear on what's going on here and I think I might be happy to not know...but I have never posted on Peter's site until right now. So although the quote from Chofetz Chaim is on my blog, I didn't post it here.
Ultimately, it's HaShem's kindness that leads us to repentance (Rom 2:4)
All Torah-rejecting Xtain fundamentalist apostates on Peter's blog:
You criticize Islam, which is reasonable in that Islam is a form of Displacement Theology that seeks to displace Benei-Yisraeil (which is not, and will never be, the Xtian "Church"). You, however, use insidious and deceptive criticisms rather than ones based on reason, unable to argue against Islam's Displacement Theology largely because you are part of that same tradition.
-Please, don't call Ribi Yehoshua (Yeshua = Aramaic) ha-Mashiakh by his Hebrew name if you are implying your belief in I*esous, the diametric opposite, an invented and imagined syncretism of historical Yehoshua into gentilized pagan religious ideas. It succeeds in little but failure to separate ha-Qodesh from khol.
-Do not ever speak or write the sacred name (Y--H) aloud. It is prohibited by Torah (read the proper translation in Ivrit in a legitimate -- Observant Jewish -- Tanakh, and it is strongly indicated that any SPEAKING of the Sheim aloud is prohibited, not merely a slandering of it. This is beside the historical corroboration).
-Ribi Yehoshua was a Beit Hileil Perushim-heritage Ribi ("Pharisee") who lived and taught Torah completely non-selectively. Combined with this, and his exclusive fulfillment of certain Messinaic prophecies, close study with the Netzarim displays that he was the only plausible candidate in history for the Mashiakh. He was never, and COULD NOT have been, a Hellenistic man-g*od idol displacing immutable Yisraeil, or "Elohim incarnate". Enroll in the Khavruta at the only Netzarim website and start observing Torah non-selectively (REAL Torah, not the horrific "messianic" version), and stop kidding yourself.
-The word "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "G*od" (ask any Arabic-language scholar in the world whether it refers to a moon deity, and he'll laugh at you). Arab-speaking Christians always use the word "Allah" to refer to G*od, too. Although, in the ancient Arabic pagan pantheon, Allah was considered the chief deity, the proto-Hebrew people originally also (though wrongly and superstitiously, of course) believed that Y--H was the highest deity as well, rather than the ONLY-EXISTING Eil. Xtians referring to J*esus as a divine man-g*od-idol (whether or not they refer to him my his Hebrew name is immaterial) are no better even if the dubious accusations are true.
-To Anonymous, and to EVERYONE: I am NOT a Netzarim. Only those recognized by the Orthodox Netzarim Beit-Din in Ra'anana, Israel (the only followers of Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh in good standing in the Obervant i.e. Orthodox Jewish community since the original Netzarim "Nazarene Jews" of the 1st century) are Netzarim, which is preceded by an extensive period of study and pursuit of non-selective Torah observance in service of ha-Sheim. There are no shortcuts. All Netzarim are either Jews (most of them halakhically converted long-time Netzarim) or geirim (conversion students). As of yet, I am still neither. However, I will soon order Oxford historian James Parkes' "The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue", the first text of the khavruta (distance learning program, which culminates in study of the reconstructed Netzarim Hebrew Matityahu, the pristine Torah-teachings and Mashiakh-mission of Ribi Yehoshua the Mashiakh).
I'll gladly talk through these things with Peter -- I love to! I can't do as much in the area of prayer, as I've dedicated to disciplining myself to learn prayer in lashon ha-Qodesh, Hebrew, which I am not yet practically familiar enough with. It's hard to promise to keep someone in your tephilim when you're a long ways off from getting it right in the first place!
Andrew
This is almost a comedy of errors....if the situation were not so serious.
First, I sincerely apologize to "the real Connie" ...my comments were directed to "keeping true" who used your name and blog post and led to the confusion.
Then we have the confusion of the two Andrews, one of whom used to be "Anon," not to be confused with "Latest Anonymous" who turned out to be Dan. And apparently we can't count on Andrew T to pray because he hasn't learned how in Hebrew yet. I'm not sure if I am one of the xtian fundamentalist apostates he is referring to. My Torah observance isn't up to his meticulousness, and I believe in the Deity of Yeshua/Jesus. There is no category to put me in.....except friend of Peter and family.
May Peter find his way back from spiritual confusion and cognitive dissonance. There but for the grace of God go any of us. May his testimony from years past be his testimony once again....
"While in Orthodox Judaism, I rediscovered Messiah anew. I found myself gazing on Him (metaphorically of course) with a new set of lenses. Now, though, He was more beautiful than ever. In Him I found relief, reform, and full redress. In Him was the rarest beauty, the fairest grace—beauty sublime beyond embrace. And, He embraced me in all of my prodigality and pretence."
Maureen, I am not meticulous in my Torah observance; I've got a long journey ahead to reach completely non-selective observance in every possible detail, and a short journey behind to boot. Steadily persuing non-selective Torah observance day-to-day exclusively to serve ha-Sheim the Creator, however, allows me to maintain integrity as a Noakhide-keeping STUDENT.
What counts is the steady learning and progression toward the goal of conforming to one's utmost to the Creator's Instruction Manual (which literally means "Torah" in Hebrew) for Life, "with all of your soul and with all of your might".
I did not call you an apostate, Maureen. An apostate, in relevance to ha-Sheim's berit with Yisraeil, is one who claims to serve ha-Sheim through, against all reason, displacing that berit (lit. Displacement Theology) with Yisraeil in favor of "following your own eyes and your own heart". Only you can tell me whether or not you are doing that.
The Netzarim (as well as the foremost scholars for years prior, such as James Parkes, Harvey Falk, Geza Vernes, etc.) demonstrate clearly that there is no precedant whatsoever, Biblical or historical, for the "Deity" of Yeshua, except for the Church doctrines of the same tradition that displaced and murdered the original Jewish followers of Yeshua. Quite opposite, the documentation is quite clear that Yeshua's original Jewish followers never believed in his "Deity" and held Yeshua as nothing less than the Mashiakh Ben-Dawid and the greatest Torah-revealer of all time; belief in any has always been and will always be Idolatry to a follower of Torah, including they. Even the thousands-of-times redacted and mistranslated NT sitting on every bookshelf hasn't a trace of evidence for such a belief in the 1st century, LET ALONE the most plausible scholar-reconstructed versions of the original documents.
Be well, Maureen! Let's have a discussion, Peter!
Andrew
Dear Peter,
This is my second open letter to you. I don't know if you read the first yet, but I sent a copy in email also. I see that you have a different profile and link to another blog in your response to my anonymous post. The link is: http://daat-erwat.blogspot.com/. I think all your readers should know about it so that they can see that your thinking is not settled and that it is in fact in the process of radical change. This is hardly evidence of a well thought out position or logical arguments. It is evidence of spiritual confusion and psychological pathology.
Daniel Gregg.
Peter, start interpreting halakha exclusively within logical premises clearly demonstrated from Tana"kh, as the Netzarim do, and the confusion will evaporate very quickly. Ask Yirmeyahu Ben-Dawid any question in his blogback related to Torah/Judaism under the scientific blacklight, and you'll more than likely receive a completely satisfactory answer. A few weeks ago, for example, the Paqid answered my questions, quite definitively, related to "predestination". For logical extrapolation of Torah/Biblical concepts, accept no substitutes for a Jewish teacher that non-selectively retains halakha exclusively within those parameters.
Unlike that new blog at http://daat-erwat.blogspot.com/ postulates, there is no "Judeo-Christo-Islamic" tradition. All traditions that claim to supersede or displace a preceding and historically plausible Divine Instruction (lit., TORAH) that clearly states cannot be displaced or abrogated, are by definition, SEPARATE and generally counterfeit from that very tradition.
Hope to talk to you right here and soon, Peter. Ostrich syndrome never provides the definitive answer for our problems! Shalom!
Andrew
[Posted on the new blog]
[WITH MY COMMENTS IN BRACKETS]
WEDNESDAY, MAY 30, 2007
Beware of Me
[Beware of Yourself… having rejected the first commandment that the Lord shall be your God you have set up your own intellect in its place. The true God still exists and he will not keep silent for much longer. Islam will be defeated. Israel will be purged. Christians will return to Israel. Israel will prosper. The nations will be put under the curse, and Babylon will rise again. It will surely come to pass just as the Almighty has declared. … Now what predictions do you have to offer to demonstrate the power of your position when they come to pass?]
-- naturalistic evolution: evolution is a non-theistic (though possibly theonomic) theory that explains the fact that life has changed over the last several hundred million years as evidenced in the fossil record, biological geography, genetic relationships, homology, etc.
[At best an evolutionary deity is a hateful one with all the death and destruction necessary for the evolutionary process. To such a deity life is meaningless, and morality is meaningless. To murder or to save life are equally valid in the evolutionary system. There are no absolutes. Love is only a chemical reaction or a delusion of humanity. The feeling that right and good is right and good is merely an illusion. The true evolutionist overcomes these feelings of right and wrong and lives logically. The true evolutionist disciplines himself to make no moral judgments or distinctions between those who kill and those who save life. There is no final basis for right or wrong without a personal, eternal, all powerfull, and wholly good Creator. There is no basis for being critical of anything I say because in the evolutionary world view every point of view is equally valid and is to be explained as a survival mechanism.]
-- heliocentric solar system: the Bible presents a geocentric solar system with a flat earth covered by a vaulted dome over which is a vast sea. I believe in a heliocentric (sun-centered) solar system.
[Evolutionists are relativists. There are no Absolutes. So who is to say in that world view which frame of reference is more valid, whether the earth goes around the sun or the sun goes around the earth? It's all a matter of where you sit as an observer. As a matter of fact, just about every astronomy program every created displays the sun moving around the earth in the charts. Let's be honest Peter, the Scripture says that he sits above the circle of the earth. So according to the bible it is not flat. You know it.]
-- 4.5 billion year-old earth: Bible chronology suggests that the earth is less than 10,000 years old while the evidence from the natural world demonstrates that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old.
[You knew the correct bible chronology from the bible's point of view. Do you still have a copy? Or does the presence of a copy make you feel guilty? Why do you feel guilty? Evolution does not explain your guilt feelings or your feelings of shame. According to evolution the faster you divorce yourself from such sentiments as love, loyalty and friendship when they become a threat to your survival, then the better. How long will you survive according to evolution Peter? Till 2034 or 2035 A.D.? According to your belief you life began with meaninglessness, and it will end the same way.]
-- evolutionary anthropology and psychology: archeology, paleontology, paleo-biology, and multiple other disciplines have convinced me that modern humans are descended from primate ancestors. There was no historical Adam.
[So some races are better than others. That's the logical conclusion of evolutionary anthropology. But if for some strange reason they are all equal, than evolution dictates that some will evolve to be better than others. As a philosophy agnostic evolutionary anthropology is a fine foundation for racism. There is no moral difference between being a racist or not.]
-- biblical errancy: The Bible presents multiple errors with respect to physical realities as known through the physical sciences and archeology. Internal contradictions also occur in the Bible. Often these contradictions are the result of multiple layers of authorship and divergent schools of understanding.
[This of course is a requirement of the evolutionary faith. The bible predicts that the world and many Christians will rebel against God at the end of the age. It predicts that the rebels will hate the bible and hate the God of the Bible. It also predicts that the God of Israel will come to the defense of Israel. The only way for evolution to win the victory is to overcome Israel and Christians. But they will not overcome the truth, and this will eternally testify that though the minions of hell attack the truth, all hell will not be able to overcome God's witnesses. Evolution does not win until the last believer in God is vanquished. It may look like evolution is winning sometimes, but God always manages to come from behind because He's really in control and just wants to see which side of the war people will serve, Him or the rebel side.]
-- biblical exclusivity: I do not consider the Bible to be the only inspired written revelation from God. I also consider the Qur’an to be inspired in a sense similar if not completely comparable to the Bible. Both contain errors and moral blunders, yet both are the fruits of a genuine human encounter with God.
[Loyalty is exclusive. You cant serve God and his enemies at the same time. War is always and exclusive relationship with one side or another. Neither side loves a traitor. The other side will not be able to use you Peter because you are a traitor. Satan wants emotionally deceived people who don't have hang ups with once knowing the truth to serve him. They make the best foot soldiers. But you knew the truth. He will worry about you looking back. You speak of "moral blunders". Remember that with agnostic naturalistic evolution there are no moral values. Morality is fiction. So called "moral blunders" are only survivial mechanisms in the naturalistic world view. Evolutionists have no business labeling anything good or evil unless they wish to be opportunistic and exploitive with it for their own survival purposes, or because it tickles their chemical ego a certain way.]
-- YHWH is a tribal God: the god of Israel began as a tribal deity who delivered an ethnocentric call to monolatry. This call later evolved into a monotheism as evidenced in the shift from YHWH to “Adonai.”
[This is blasphemy plain and simple. Ever hear of Pascal's wager. If there is a god and I offend him then I'm doomed. If there isn't a god and I don't offend him then I'm no worse off than before. Conclusion: only a foolish man will blaspheme God. Of course, you shouldn't object to being called a blasphemer because their no right or wrong in naturalistic evolution.]
It is likely that I will add more to this as time permits. But, so that you know for yourself that I am dangerous, I am posting this for any and all to read.
[Yes you are dangerous. A man who can go from keeping the ten commandments to breaking the first (The LORD is not your God anymore), the second (you have set up your own intellect), the third (you have blasphemed the NAME) the forth (you are not keeping Sabbath), the fifth (you are dishonoring the faith of your father and mother and walking on your father's grave … by the way I can say with 20/20 hindsight that his early death has spared him much spiritual agony over you. Your mother may not live much longer either. How much self destruction of Peter Sander do you think she will survive? The sixth commandment you haven't broken yet except in your heart you have murdered your wife by hating her. The seventh, you committed adultery in your heart with Sarah Berghoff (the woman who buttered you up so nicely for the eating, and is now trying to put jam on you). The 8th commandment. You have stolen from your wife. You owe Trinity over $1200 in fines. You have borne false witness against your wife, against me, and against yourself. And finally, you have coveted a spiritual relationship and an emotional attachment to another that really belonged to your wife. Yes, Peter, anyone who can do these things is very dangerous. Such a person has no morality. Such a person is a danger to himself, to his friends, to his wife and to his children. If you reach out and touch them Peter with your evil ways, so help me God I will cast the first stone. You can live the remainder of you life as an agnostic evolutionists if you like, but if you reach out to harm them spiritually any more or to change their religion in your hatred for you past. I am dangerous also. Don't provoke me to righteous rage, because whatever Tonya, who loved you the most, and who loves her children the most wishes for I will pray for.
Let's list a few more of your errors: How about the love letters to Sarah? How about joining fitness singles while you are still married? I take back the plus I gave you for apologizing. Tonya says it was not a true apology. It was an error on my part to say it without checking.
Don't try to hide behind the legal system either Peter. They will not be able to protect you from God's justice. And just remember that most people in this country are not agnostics or atheists. The fool says in his heart there is no God.
I'm not threatened by you Peter. In fact, I only wrote this because some else is encouraging me not to give up. So I lied, I said I wouldn't pursue you anymore. I'm getting advice to quit, and advice to continue. Sooner or later they'll all tell me to quit. Or sooner or later you will be so amoral that you are beyond help. You will only hate what you've become. You will judge yourself everytime you are reminded of true morality as you go through life. When moral people meet you, you will judge yourself. You will never be able to purge your self of the morality detector that God created in you. You will not be able to get a divorce from the image of God in you.
[My comments on Sara Berghoff's post]
Peter,
Thanks for your honesty.
[True. Honest with beliefs for the moment, but still Peter is being dishonest with himself and the image of God in him, and his conscience. It's just impossible to live an amoral existence.]
You are breathe of fresh air for those of us who have struggled with such issues.
[You lied Sara. Only true biblical morality is fresh air. The amorality of evolution is a dark cloud, thick like trying to breathe volcanic ash.]
[Last post continued as as the word limit was exceeded]
I am anxious to read your thoughts as you explore what it's like to emerge out of religious fundamentalism and tackle, with all honesty and employing what you can of logic, questions dealing with God's relation to man and how He's revealed himself to various cultures and peoples throughout the ages.
[I have to remind you that Peter is a declared agnostic. There can be no revelation to an agnostic, nor can logic be applied to what one claims he or she cannot know. Failure to admit this is simply dishonest. Finally, God has revealed what will happen to you prophetically. You will know when it comes to pass.]
What others may classify as weakness or rebellion ("spiritual confusion", " psychological derangement", "sheer arrogance", your lack of "exercising faith" ) I see as boldness to confront human dilemma's of faith vs. reason, cultural transcendence vs. cultural contingency, holy book in-errancy vs. scientific realities; very admirable and worthy of applause.
[Remember this began with treachery and adultery of the heart. Praise it all you want]
I imagine you will receive much scrutiny from the moral/thought "police" as you pose questions and suggest penetrating answers. good. let them shake in their boots...let them call you demonic, faithless, sinful, full of death.
[Agnostics have no answers. Perhaps if Peter were to become an atheist he might have something definite to say.]
May such comments from such close minded individuals cause you, and others like you, to appreciate, even further, the deliverance you have received from being removed from such communities who wish for your suffering long and hard as punishment for your wrestling with God.
[False religion and sex always went hand in hand. Is that why you pursed Peter with your whiles? Did you mean to deliver him into the bedroom?]
remember, too, that you owe no one an explanation or definition of your positions but yourself, and God (depending, i suppose, on your views of Him).
[Now you catch on. He's agnostic. Quite true. A believer in naturalistic evolution owes no one any explanation from their point of view. Trouble is though, one cannot leave the heart God created behind. It will come alone uninvited and will always be demanding an accounting!].
These black and white thinkers may desire you to posit yourself in one theological camp or another (as to offer themselves assistance in placing you in one of their polarized classifications) but I hope to encourage your exploration in "grayness".
[That's fairly amoral. No right or wrong. Everything's grey. Black and White thinkers have their point of view also. Since everythings grey you should not feel the urge to judge black and white thinkers. But you feel the urge to judge. You feel the urge to strike back. You can't control it. It rises up to contradict your own philosophy.]
Such individuals may wish to label me: "pro-palestinian anti-zionists with radical sympathies for Islamic terrorists (a.k.a. "freedom fighters") against Israel" but they shame themselves with making such unfounded, judgmental and slanderous statements.
[Let it be noted. You did not deny you are pro-Palestinian. Noted also that you do not deny sympathy for Islamic terrorists.]
They do they same with you.
All this to say, Peter, congratulations on your new blog...and I eagerly anticipate your ideas and ponderings, even if they disagree with my own convictions.
[How do you disagree with Peter? Please elaborate. You seem to have some conviction that there is a God. I think that it would be a false god you have made in your own image. It is more honest to be an agnostic than to believe in a false god made in your own image, even if you put your own intellect where God should be. In that Peter is better than you.]
Some of your past friends may be against you, but I am for you. Watch out, though, for those of us who support you may be your "evil jinn"....we may be "doing your thinking for you" (wait...who's trying to control whose thinking here?) Ha. In any case, Cheers.
[You are not a true friend of Peter Sara. You are a seducing slut of a woman that likes to bring men down. Peter is merely your latest victim. He sought you to fill the spiritual vacuum in his life, and you gave him an emotional placebo to make him feel good. Then you moved in for the kill. Good hunting Amazon woman. There no fear of God in you at all.]
Thanks for writing this.
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